In describing the rebellions that broke out among the colonies of Athens during the Peloponnesian war, Thucydides has this to say in 430 BC:
"...To fit in with the change of events, words, too, had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect from a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying that one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfit for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. ...These parties were not formed to enjoy the benefits of the established laws, but to aquire power by overthrowing the established regime. ...As a rule, those who were least remarkable for intelligence showed the greatest powers for survival."
Does any of this sound familiar?
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Re: Thucydides
Sun, August 8, 2004 - 9:48 AMSure does. Interesting that this was written so long ago, yet is repeating itself today. Solutions, ideas, even inventions are all recycled at some point. "There is nothing new under the sun." So why have we not learned? Why the same mistakes, the same wars, the same social ills?
IS there really such a thing as new? -
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Re: Thucydides
Tue, August 10, 2004 - 1:34 PMFound a related quotation:
The only use of a knowldege of the past is to equip us for the present. The present contains all that there is. It is holy ground, for it is the past, and it is the future.
Alfred North Whitehead -
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Re: Thucydides
Fri, August 13, 2004 - 5:39 PMWhoever said
"The meek shall inherit the earth"
was wrong.
actually, the most ruthless will.
but the quote gives us hope.
I'm not sure if that makes the situation any better or worse. -
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Re: Thucydides
Sat, August 14, 2004 - 5:59 PMSam I am a bit confused. Will you explain more?
More thoughts I ran accross this week:
"Whatever has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account.
And I saw something else under the sun:
In the place of judgement-wickedness was there,
In the place of justice- wickedness was there.
'God will bring to judgement
both the righteousness and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every actvity,
a time for every deed." (Eccl. 3:15-17)
"So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?" (v. 3:22) -
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Re: Thucydides
Tue, August 17, 2004 - 1:38 PMDebbie -
I don't think I want to go down this road with you, but if you keep pulling biblical quotes, I'll find some too.
Remember one about "Beware false prophets who ask for money in my name" ?
Does your church ask you for money?
Mine doesn't. -
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Re: Thucydides
Tue, August 17, 2004 - 6:03 PMPlease don't get offended at biblical quotations. It's just one of many things I read and I felt the Eccl. quotations were legitimate in the line of discussion.
This whole concept of good/bad not playing out as they should in the world, is something I have been thinking a lot about this week. It bugs the heck out of me that efforts to good do not always yield positive results, and vice versa. The guy who wrote Eccl. struggled with the same topic, and came to the conclusion, essentially "that's life, do good anyways."
This all relates back to the origional Thucydides quotation. The meaning of words change with those who manipulate them to thier own agenda. It just demonstates that good is good when used for good, and bad is bad when used for bad. Same goes for churches/political parties/ buisnesses, etc. The need for money doesn't diminish the purpose of the organization, only the potenital for the way it's used.
hmm, well I hope through all this circular reasoning and bad sentence structure I made some sense. Thoughts everyone? -
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Karma
Wed, August 18, 2004 - 12:00 PMI don't believe the church has a broad "need for money."
I think they want money, as everyone else does.
I make enough to get by, so I don't NEED more, but I want more anyway. It's a human trait - but I'm only human, and not some organization fronting a higher power.
I'm confused why the Catholic church spent millions building a gigantic cathedral in Los Angeles.
Last I heard, Christians aern't Roman - God doesn't care how big your church is.
Essentially, I don't understand why church can't be held in a vacant lot.
I'm not offended by the biblical quotations.
I'm not ofended by carnivores teasing me about being vegetarian.
But I won't sit quietly either.
What's "Eccl.?"
I believe in a (vague) form of Karma.
I believe you are who you portray yourself to be.
If you're rude, or otherwise put bad vibes into the world - stop kidding yourself about Forgiveness, etc. and just change; or accept the fact that you're a bad person.
Being a bad person is easy.
Controlling one's attitude/emotions/mouth,, etc. in order to only put "good" out into the world is a lot harder, and is what distinguishes good people from bad.
I believe that bad people invite bad things into their lives.
I see bad, rude people in the world, and try not to let it bother me, because I know the world sucks for them, and will continue to do so until they become a better person.
I enjoy life. -
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Re: Karma
Thu, August 19, 2004 - 10:13 AMI agree with you on the church money issue. Bugs me when so much is wasted on bigger buildings, more prestige, etc. Truth is the "church"(meaning a community of people) doesn't need money. It would survive without it, and does in other places in the world.
Eccl. stands for the book of Ecclestiastics (in old Testement.) It's most know for where the Bettles got there famous lryics "A time to live, A time to die, A time to dance, A time to mourn...." -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Karma
Thu, August 19, 2004 - 11:55 AMSin above all sins is to spell "The Beatles" wrong.
Interesting fact though, I never knew.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Karma
Thu, August 19, 2004 - 1:14 PMAre you referring to "Turn, Turn, Turn"? I thought that song was originally recorded by The Byrds. Or did The Beatles do a cover, or vice versa? But yeah, the lyrics are taken right out of the Bible.
Actually, if more archdiocese declare bankruptcy in the wake of the abuse scandals, as in Oregon, then the Church may not have not much money to waste.
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Re: Thucydides
Tue, August 17, 2004 - 1:41 PMThere once was a meek man named Gore who won the popular vote in 2000.
Unfourtunatly, a very ruthless man was running against him, and won the election despite not having the popular vote.
The ruthless man is still in control.
If you've seen F-9/11, the Democrats in the Senate GAVE him the presidency. -
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Re: Thucydides
Tue, August 17, 2004 - 1:45 PM"Speak softly and carry a big stick."
~ Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Thucydides
Thu, August 19, 2004 - 12:03 PMHere's another--
"I have a selfish motive for desiring that the President [justify his war with Mexico]. I expect to give some votes, in connection with the war, which, without his so doing, will be of doubtful propriety in my own judgment, but which will be free from the doubt if he does so. But if he can not, or will not do this--if on any pretence, or no pretence, he shall refuse or omit it, then I shall be fully convinced, of what I more than suspect already, that he is deeply conscious of being in the wrong--that he feels the blood of this war, like the blood of Abel, is crying to Heaven against him. That originally having some strong motive--what, I will not stop now to give my opinion concerning--to involve the two countries in a war, and trusting to escape scrutiny, by fixing the public gaze upon the exceeding brightness of military glory--that attractive rainbow, that rises in showers of blood--that serpent's eye, that charms to destroy he plunged into it, and has swept, on and on, till, disappointed in his calculation of the ease with which Mexico might be subdued, he now finds himself, he knows not where. How like the half insane mumbling of a fever-dream, is the whole war part of his late message!"
--Abraham Lincoln
January 12, 1848 -
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Re: Thucydides
Thu, August 19, 2004 - 8:07 PMAh, that reminds me of one of my favorite Abraham Lincoln quotes, namely the Letter to Mrs. Bixby (which was also featured in the movie "Saving Private Ryan").
There may indeed be a bright military glory in a life given to save the Republic, but how many wars can be justified as undoubtedly and clearly as Lincoln may have justified the Civil War in the "Gettysburg Address"?
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Executive Mansion,
Washington,
November 21, 1864.
Mrs. Bixby,
Boston, Massachusetts:
DEAR MADAM: I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant-General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any words of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering to you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save. I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.
Yours very sincerely and respectfully,
Abraham Lincoln.
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